How come Italy used to be the center of the civilized world,

[rubycalaber]

going back to the original argument, muslims never had any sort of major presence in italy and they had nothing to do with the fall of rome

I think you'll find muslims caused the fall of all civilizations as our good friend Anders Breivik understands

[rubycalaber]

I'm sorry, did you say """""civilized"""""?

I thought you'd like animals killing the fuck out of humans

you dont get to keep posting maps of the almoravids

the almoravid dynasty was the largest that the moors had ever expanded and conquered. so by posting this, i am showing you the maximum possible range of moorish rule.

then say "i never specified what i was calling a moor!! haha loooool fail." when it was really obvious you were using moor to refer exclusively to the berbers in al-andalus which is so fucking wrong its retarded.

i didnt specify what i called a moor. you were putting words into my mouth in order to create a counterargument. thats pathetic.

first the wikipedia article youre using as a source to mean "saracen" was written in the 21st century you retard, its not a long lost relic of the 9th century i promise second "not in 800 A.D." yeah, and you know that how exactly?

at the time, saracen was used as a term for people from or around arabia at the outreaches of the roman empire. it was only used to refer to any muslim, probably as a slur, around the time of the crusades and later. so the 12th century and beyond. please observe this:
Sar·a·cen
   [sar-uh-suhn] Show IPA
noun
1. History/Historical . a member of any of the nomadic tribes on the Syrian borders of the Roman Empire.
2. (in later use) an Arab.
3. a Muslim, especially in the period of the Crusades.
relevant to that, i will also tie in the following:

oh hey clay, look, heres something else that i could google easily because my keyboard wasnt covered in snickers leavings

There is also the people-deceiving cult (threskeia) of the Ishmaelites, the forerunner of the Antichrist, which prevails until now. It derives from Ishmael, who was born to Abraham from Hagar, wherefore they are called Hagarenes and Ishmaelites. And they call them Saracens, inasmuch as they were sent away empty-handed by Sarah; for it was said to the angel by Hagar: "Sarah has sent me away empty-handed" (cf. Book of Genesis xxi. 10, 14).

The Fountain of Knowledge by John of Damascus ,c. 730 AD, Chapter On Heresy

specifically where you got this from, again, was a wikipedia page youve already referred to. under the paragraph of your selected quote, it says:
Eusebius and Epiphanius Scholasticus, in their Christian histories, place Saracens east of the Gulf of Aqaba but beyond the Roman province of Arabia
this is a reference to the middle east. the ishmaelites in your quote resided east of the shur of egypt, so in the sinai peninsula, all the way up to assyria, or iraq. the person who wrote your quote about what defines saracens from the 8th century was from damascus, or syria, and never left the middle east. your own posting and the related documents suggest that during that time, saracen referred to tribes in the middle east.

third, the conqueror of bari was not an "arab", he was a berber. berbers are moors.

specifically i said that the emirate of bari was under saracen control. i didn't mention any person, so i'm not sure if you have trouble reading or just comprehending. you are the one who introduced the emirate of bari, documentation shows that the emirate of bari was a saracen state, and i have just proven that under these contemporary boundaries, saracen refers to people of the middle east.

also, what do you mean "bari was not an italian city at this time". yes, it was. it is not possible to translocate a city from off of a peninsula, and if youre arguing culturally then youre seriously the biggest idiot in the world because the person who first brought up moors and italy was talking about the general region of italy not the medieval use of the word which referred more or less to the kingdom in charlegmanes empire anyway youre dumb.

bari, at the time, was under byzantine rule. which by all accounts is not roman/italian rule. the person who first brought up italy was more than likely referring to roman rule, not modern italian geographical boundaries.

How come Italy used to be the center of the civilized world

italy has never been the center of anything, so he was obviously referring to the roman empire. if you want to get back to basics, which is what you are suggesting, then every part of your argument was after the fall of rome. so you've completely lost, as nothing after the fall can be the cause of the fall.

[Genital Doli]

the almoravid dynasty was the largest that the moors had ever expanded and conquered. so by posting this, i am showing you the maximum possible range of moorish rule.

the moors were not a collective unified state, you are identifying a people with a dynasty and its weird and wrong.

i didnt specify what i called a moor. you were putting words into my mouth in order to create a counterargument. thats pathetic.

At the dynasty's greatest expanse of control

you pretty clearly are implying that the almoravids were moors and that this map of their expansion is somehow the limit to moorish conquest which is the most bizarre idea ive ever heard

at the time, saracen was used as a term for people from or around arabia at the outreaches of the roman empire. it was only used to refer to any muslim, probably as a slur, around the time of the crusades and later. so the 12th century and beyond. please observe this:
Sar·a·cen
   [sar-uh-suhn] Show IPA
noun
1. History/Historical . a member of any of the nomadic tribes on the Syrian borders of the Roman Empire.
2. (in later use) an Arab.
3. a Muslim, especially in the period of the Crusades.

cool, yo

relevant to that, i will also tie in the following:

specifically where you got this from, again, was a wikipedia page youve already referred to. under the paragraph of your selected quote, it says:
Eusebius and Epiphanius Scholasticus, in their Christian histories, place Saracens east of the Gulf of Aqaba but beyond the Roman province of Arabia

again, youre an idiot because one of those people wrote over 600 years before the time in question and the other wrote 300 years before it

this is a reference to the middle east. the ishmaelites in your quote resided east of the shur of egypt, so in the sinai peninsula, all the way up to assyria, or iraq. the person who wrote your quote about what defines saracens from the 8th century was from damascus, or syria, and never left the middle east. your own posting and the related documents suggest that during that time, saracen referred to tribes in the middle east.

yes, the christians of the 9th century had a very nuanced view of the muslim world and made these kinds of distinctions all the time. please go kill yourself for making this shit up.

specifically i said that the emirate of bari was under saracen control. i didn't mention any person, so i'm not sure if you have trouble reading or just comprehending. you are the one who introduced the emirate of bari, documentation shows that the emirate of bari was a saracen state, and i have just proven that under these contemporary boundaries, saracen refers to people of the middle east.

critique my reading comprehension and then proceed to ignore the fact that yes, i brought up bari, and i also happened to bring up the person who conquered bari, who was just as much of a moor as the almoravids were. its cool to say "documentation" and then not actually explain yourself, either way, it doesnt show that the emirate of bari was an "arab" (syrian, arabian, whatever) state, in fact quite the opposite. it was a berber regime. if you really want to argue this then youre an idiot but we already knew that.

bari, at the time, was under byzantine rule. which by all accounts is not roman/italian rule. the person who first brought up italy was more than likely referring to roman rule, not modern italian geographical boundaries. italy has never been the center of anything, so he was obviously referring to the roman empire. if you want to get back to basics, which is what you are suggesting, then every part of your argument was after the fall of rome. so you've completely lost, as nothing after the fall can be the cause of the fall.

considering rome as an entity only existed in the form of the byzantines in this time period your argument is filled with a retarded number of holes. you said moors never went into italy. if you want to redefine italy to mean something weird then that's fine, but im going to stick with the conventional definition of italy which is the peninsula and occasionally malta and sicily. since youre so fond of maps heres one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_Italy.gif

nobody thinks that the moors caused the fall of the roman empire unless they're retarded, the moors werent even around, you had said that the moors never went into italy and yet they did, that's what ive been arguing and just because you like to live in a snickers filled fantasy land where arguments can only be monolithic and you can either accept the entire thing or dismiss all of it doesnt mean that everyone else does.

the only part of your argument that i have been arguing was the moorish presence in italy. your argument is predicated on the fact that

1) the almoravid dynasty represents the maximum extent of moorish expansion (no, and i dont know where you got this idea)
2) because the wikipedia article says that the emirate of bari was a saracen state that means it could not have been a moorish state, and because you are a retard who is trying to grasp for every straw he can to hold onto his argument, you decided to make a giant semantic thing about it (the emirate was founded by a berber slave, it was as moorish as you can get)
3) bari was not part of italy because it was ruled by the byzantines, just like when the Normans invaded England it ceased being England because it was ruled by French-speaking Scandinavians

all three of these points are so wrong and terrible it's honestly sad, it's funny how drugs and snickers have the same effect on people wrt italy

[Genital Doli]

i am an american. if i went to some shithole african country and conquered it and installed all my american buddies as friends, it would only actually be a british regime, obviously.

going back to the original argument, muslims never had any sort of major presence in italy and they had nothing to do with the fall of rome

islam didnt even exist when the roman empire collapsed lol

[rubycalaber]

I like how their argument is gradually going down sentence by sentence through one wikipedia article

I like how their argument is gradually going down sentence by sentence through one wikipedia article

oh god ruby with the massive posts

[Genital Doli]

I like how their argument is gradually going down sentence by sentence through one wikipedia article

The State of Modern Scholarship

moors wins again

[maks]

leave.

[rubycalaber]

Steam has finished downloading Sid Meier's Civilization V